We know that SAP AG have been working hard to improve the SyBase ASE Data Base. I would like to know if is there anyone here who has just changed from Oracle DB to Sybase ASE and what do you recomend: SAP ERP + Oracle or SAP ERP + Sybase AS
Actually i use SAP + Oracle. But i have been thinking of migrate to Sybase ASE.
in my opinion, there is no perfect database for SAP, the disadvantages are all too obvious:
- Oracle is quite expensive
- Sybase ASE is brand new, only limited experience is available
- HANA is also too new, ramp-up for ERP on HANA has just started
- MS SQL limits you to Windows as the operating system, causing follow-up constraints
- DB2 also adds a third party into the support structure (other than e.g. with MaxDB, Sybase or HANA)
- MaxDB has got a small installed base and might be replaced by Sybase and/or HANA
Typically, it is a good idea to search for a database with a large installed base or which is growing fast.
There should be also some roadmap without dark clouds over it.
Ideally it would be from SAP to simplify support.
With all the information we got from SAP so far, HANA would be a good candiate for the ideal SAP database real soon. Maybe Sybase ASE is the runner up. Let's see what 2013 brings.
Having worked a lot with SQL server and Oracle, Oracle has serious advantages for larger customers in terms Of the fine level of control via config options. Whether it's memory assignments, compression/encryption options, multiplexing controls, lock level settings, etc.
Has anyone got any feel yet for how good a piece of software Sybase ASE is vs Oracle? Oracle is expensive but is a very good product.
Yes, Oracle RDBMS is a mature product and provides many features. Best of all, the documentation of the features is top notch. It is more a question whether you really need these features and want to pay for them.
E.g. compression is not so much of a help as many people hope. Its impact on performance is neglectible. Many features come in handy if you have a very large database with a heavy mixed workload (just think of the great Active Workload Repository). For smaller systems they are often not needed or plain overkill in some cases.
Sybase works fine with SAP, no issues detected so far. The installed base is still small so I cannot speak for huge systems with very large users numbers.
some of my favorite discussions .. it's always about who has the larger one
Just my 2 cents (and what i usually tell my clients):
I am a "fan" of the "Iron Man" Larry Ellison and his database engine, but to be honest as well .. it does not make sense in any case.
If you have only very small SAP systems without any critical SLAs and just a few users - why should you pay so much money. If you will also use third party applications like content / cache servers you can go for MaxDB in the whole landscape for example.
But if you plan or already have a large SAP system with critical SLAs (just think about finance industry or medical infrastructures) and you need to scale out with a large amount of users - then Oracle is the only option (in my opinion). Just think about RAC, Data Guard, Locking / Read consistency, etc. No other database platform can handle such requests that well.
.. and that's the crux about HANA in my opinion as well. HANA is designed to handle huge amount of data very quickly, but most clients that run such systems have critical SLAs and have you ever heard about some technology like RAC or Data Guard for HANA?
@ Mark: In my experience OLTP compression can make a huge difference. Just thinking about specific BW implementations (like calculation for non-cumulative cubes). In an OLTP environment it mostly depends on the application usage, but especially in JIS/JIT scenarios (JIT* tables) it can make a huge difference.
Stefan Koehler: I already wondered why not more people contributed in this discussion. In other forums the question might have raised a minor feud. By the way, I fully agree with the database selection criteria you added.
I have seen several BW on Oracle systems for which compression was enabled. The typical compression rate was 3:1. Of course it makes a difference if (for example) a full table scan is running on a compressed or uncompressed table, but the overall results were disappointing. In sum, no significant performance gain was visible.
RAC for HANA? Sure, the HANA scale-out solution with a spare blade is already highly available. That was included into HANA design right from the start.
Data Guard for HANA? Yes, disaster tolerance via replication into another data center is possible. Maybe I will see the first instance of this type really soon.
are you selling HANA .. that sounds like the compression myth of DB2, before Oracle introduced the Advanced compression option with 11g.
> Sure, the HANA scale-out solution with a spare blade is already highly available. That was included into HANA design right from the start.
Maybe the information, that i have is wrong, but i refer to the following SAP article (unfortunately it is in german only): http://de.news-sap.com/2012/05/16/sap-hana-unterstutzt-kunden-beim-scale-out/
Basically the technology is based on a "cold start up" of the standby server. This has nothing to do with HA like Oracle RAC offers (like TAF). Just think about SAP based banking applications.
> Yes, disaster tolerance via replication into another data center is possible. Maybe I will see the first instance of this type really soon.
Yes, but this is storage based afaik. I have read several technical papers by HP for that, but you don't have such flexibility and safety with Data Guard and Flashback for example. (multiple rollback or forward in case of logical errors or extract data in read only mode after flashback or recovery and then go on with normal business afterwards without rebuilding)
.. this is the important stuff in my opinion (and in most of the business cases that i have seen in such critical environments)
Please correct me, if i am wrong .. i like to learn something new about HANA as well.
> are you selling HANA ..
Disclaimer: I work for HP, so I like seeing HP's Appliance for HANA being sold. Since HP doesn't make databases, I believe I am relatively unbiased with databases. Database theory was always one of my favorite topics.
> Basically the technology is based on a "cold start up" of the standby server. This has nothing to do with HA like Oracle RAC offers (like TAF).
In one presentation from SAP I saw something like TAF for HANA. Sorry, I searched but couldn't find it. A transaction waits until the standby node is active and takes over the session. No error message for the end-user, just some wait time until the standby is ready. Still not the same like RAC, but I have also seen SAP customers moving from single-node Oracle to RAC and back.
> Yes, but this is storage based afaik. I have read several technical papers by HP for that, but you don't have such flexibility and safety with Data Guard and Flashback for example. (multiple rollback or forward in case of logical errors or extract data in read only mode after flashback or recovery and then go on with normal business afterwards without rebuilding)
I prefer Oracle Flashback Query. It is one major selling point for Oracle, IMHO. But HANA could operate on old data as well with its insert-only approach. It is more a matter of database size than one of technology. Storage-based replication may be not as flexible as the Data Guard approach, especially since you need a DBA and a storage expert for this. However, DT is possible with HANA.
hehe .. so we are a little bit biased as i earn my money with Oracle databases (but i don't work for Oracle) ..
> A transaction waits until the standby node is active and takes over the session. No error message for the end-user, just some wait time until the standby is ready.
That's exactly how i understand it as well. So it is like Oracle Data Guard with an observer and not like Oracle RAC at all.
> But HANA could operate on old data as well with its insert-only approach. It is more a matter of database size than one of technology.
I don't mean flashback query in this scenario, because of it is based on undo and this is usually not available on standby side (except Active Data Guard). I mean "flashback database" based on FRA and flashback / archive logs. This combination allows us to be very flexible in rollback and recovery multiple times and we don't need to rebuild the standby environment afterwards.
.. maybe Lars Breddemann will join this discussion and share some internals about the HA options with HANA.
Make the name a reference like Lars Breddemann, that will raise the probability that he is notified about this thread. Even better than his response to this thread might be a blog post on HANA's HA features (e.g. compared to Oracle RAC).
We have deviated from the original topic so far and Sam hasn't responded yet, I don't know whether this discussion is still useful in relation to the thread title?
Hi my friends,
I believe that HANA and Oracle has different concepts. HANA can be evaluated as a database, but it is not only a database but also an analytics engine. From technology perspective, HANA has many skills especially on SAP ERP and BusinessObjects. The innovations and developments are continuosly growing up and will be continue at the SAP side.
On the other hand from database point of view, Oracle has many powerful specs such and TAF, RAC and so on, as Stefan noted.
In the near future, I believe that HANA will take a high stage position, in the database market. Current develepments show that HANA will support all the HA functionalities as the other giants, in near future.
Though I would be interested to know if SAP plan to do anything with the "IQ" columnar database they got with the purchase of Sybase...
>> But if you plan or already have a large SAP system with critical SLAs (just think about finance industry or medical infrastructures) and you need to scale out with a large amount of users - then Oracle is the only option (in my opinion). Just think about RAC, Data Guard, Locking / Read consistency, etc. No other database platform can handle such requests that well.
What do you mean about DB2 for LUW with HADR, pureScale features? About scaling I think DB2 pureScale is more scalable than Oracle Real Application Clusters.
to be honest i am not very familiar with the DB2 pureScale / HADR in real life. All the information i got about this is from blogs, marketing meetings and documentation. Basically IBM tried to "copy" Oracle RAC
But if i got that right, you have one "PowerHA pureScale server" which does the locking and central management stuff. A completely different concept than GES / GCS in a RAC environment. I also don't know the flexibility with HADR (like Oracle Flashback) and compression of redo streams for large distances, etc.. I am also not sure how TAF is handled with pureScale.
But after all, if DB2 can reach the HA and DR possibilities of Oracle RAC and Data Guard - you still have the locking mechanism (lock table) and the parallel scalability based on this.
I also tried to find some references for DB2 pureScale and HADR, but found nothing. Is anybody using this in real life?
thanks for your contribuition. In my case the reason of "thinking in" change is technical. But i will consider your point of view when you say:
But if you plan or already have a large SAP system with critical SLAs (just think about finance industry or medical infrastructures) and you need to scale out with a large amount of users - then Oracle is the only option (in my opinion).
Thank you very much.
first of all, thanks for your reply and Sorry for the long silence. In fact my concern was about SyBase ASE Data Base being a SAP AG Product. And normally in this case the relationship or integration between the two products is more natural and ease to set up or even troubleshooting in case of failure. But i agree when you say:
Sybase ASE is brand new...
Maybe Sybase ASE is the runner up. Let's see what 2013 brings.
It is definitely easier to set up, all you need is the medias, when you run sapinst or spm it will install the db automatically for you, no hassle!!
I can imagine that support will also be tied up to the system which you choose to install thus lowering the costs related to sustaining the application.
I guess all in all it is a good solution and SAP will definitely back it up when needed. Before I leave it is worth mentioning that HANA is a Database, nothing more, and it uses Sybase ASE Engine and it contains what used to be called IQ.
I can imagine it will be much easier to integrate systems using Sybase ASE to HANA in the near future but as of now no matter what you chose you will need one SLT license for each system which you need to integrate with HANA for real time analytics as the SLT is responsible for replicating the data from the source to HANA DB. Also you will need one appliance for each of the applications you want to run on HANA (although you can run one application on multiple HANA appliances).
The same does not hold true for the following applications in the whitelist (note: 1661202):
you are of course right, Sybase ASE is a mature database. My original sentence is misleading since I have always the SAP hat on. I should better have said: SAP running on Sybase ASE is (was) a brand new combination. This raises some concerns since SAP software has its very special database requirements and database performance peculiarities.
As far as Sybase ASE goes, I just got back from Sapphire in Orlando, and there wasn't a single mention about it. Nothing in the sessions and nothing on the floor. I am certified in Sybase ASE and have been using it for a long time, but I don't really see any demand despite the fact that it has been a very good OLTP product technically for the last 25 or so years.
So, I think your question about recommending SAP ERP + Sybase ASE has a very small audience, especially since this configuration was marketed primarily as a step towards a final SAP ERP + SAP HANA configuration. The final SAP ERP + SAP HANA configuration is now available.
There are certainly companies considering a move from ORACLE to Sybase ASE - it's going to be optimised for running SAP, as SAP own it. It's also likely to interact more smoothly with HANA; as SAP will design this as well. I think a follow on question is really should companies look at running business suite on Sybase ASE or on HANA for Business Suite?