Rant: can't get past external 1st level support

[Former Member]

I have been repeatedly told by SAP SMP 1st level support to use SCN for a kernel problem, so I guess next best forum is the local pub to discuss kernel level task handlers...

Perhaps you have also noticed that sometimes you cannot terminate sessions in SM04? Sometimes when ending a login session with /nex some sessions dont close as expected? Behind these are the function module TH_DELETE_USER which is a wrapper for a kernel function from the task handler family. So I opened a customer message as this is now a problem for me (to ensure that logoff is completed).

So 1st level support from an external service partner (?) pick up the ticket and for the past month the following game has been going on:

• of course, want to logon to my system... (makes no sense for a kernel function anyway..)
• tell me to upgrade and try again, it might work... (but cannot say why they are feeling lucky today)
• tell me that the FM is not supported (so I should never logoff again...)
• tell me that kernel task handlers is a consulting issue so use SCN...

So... now I am here and post a link to it in the customer message and would like some help to get past this 1st level external support blockade. Or by some miracle an SCN kernel consultant ninja shows up and explains to me how I should logoff correctly?

I will post a link to this in the message which I dont see the point in closing, despite 1st level getting worried about their statistics...

Cheers,

Julius

[former_member186746 · Accepted solution]

Hi Julius,

My strategy sometimes involves trying to overwhelm them at first with huge amounts of information using only jargon and abbreviations that only an expert will understand. I try to also include some code where either the problem is or where I exclude where the problem is.

I also tell them which notes I tried so that they won't come up with "have you tried note x".

And to top it of I use difficult English with lots of synonyms I try to use words only once.

I only do this when there is a big problem and when I have no time to waste.

Cheers, Rob.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

I don't show off, but I do ask questions in the message which convey the impression that I have looked into it and am not a beginner.

Problem in this case is that beyond the ABAP function module, there are only kernel calls. So neither I nor the external 1st level support call center can know what is going on. We are powerless.

In the meantime I have bumped it again after 2 weeks of being ignored because I found a VERY similar sounding correction for 7.20 kernels from a year or so ago, but it did not apply to 7.21 kernels - perhaps that was an oversight?

I simply don't understand the incentive to potter around and play ping-pong with message statii?

Cheers,

Julius

[Matt_Fraser · Accepted solution]

Ah, I've run into this before too, where the precise problem I'm encountering is described in a Note that only applies to a different kernel or Basis release, and it's obvious that it should apply more widely.

Likewise, I always try to indicate which Notes I've already looked into, what troubleshooting steps I've followed, and as much as I can figure out about what the cause might be.  That doesn't stop them from asking me to apply Notes that a) are only for a lower support pack level, or b) I specifically mention as having already tried.

[joao_sousa2 · Accepted solution]

Still fighting support on the same issue after all this time. The WM RF menu framework throws a MESSAGE which produces a RABAX_STATE while running in ITSMobile. I've already said where the message is thrown, how hard is it?

Tells me to regenerate the services, but I didn't change anything so .... what good would regeneration do? Of course it didn't solve anything. Now a kernel upgrade.... just throwing stuff at the problem.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Maybe could assist you in the space. If Oisin can't help you, he will know someone who can.

[Jelena · Accepted solution]

So you have to know someone who knows someone to get SAP support? Wonderful... This goes right on my upcoming Business Trends blog "Top 10 things SAP and mafia have in common".

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Either that, or you break open the kernel and decompile it to see which users made comments in the coding areas of the problem. Then you hack the HR system to find out who their organizational successors are and send them a Direct Message on SCN or better Facebook incase they are on holiday.

Should work...

[joao_sousa2 · Accepted solution]

Thanks but in this case, I'm sticking with SAP Support. The customer pays licensing fees to get support and this is clearly a support situation.

I could easily remove the error with a modification, but that's not how it's supposed to work.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Jelena Perfiljeva wrote:

So you have to know someone who knows someone to get SAP support? 

So finally ( month down the line) when the summer school holidays came to an end, I managed to contact a kernel developer I know from other topics and have met in Walldorf a few times. He pinged a colleague in the task handler group whom he knew and voila... SAP Note 1885942 will be available in a new version again some time soon and then that should fix the issue. Might also ring a bell for you folks who have occasionally noticed the same.

I have not applied the kernel yet, but hopes are up on my side again in this isolated case.

But the general problem with 1st level not having a clue and not passing the message on is not really solved this way.

Cheers,

Julius

[Lukas_Weigelt · Accepted solution]

So finally ( month down the line) when the summer school holidays came to an end, I managed to contact a kernel developer I know from other topics and have met in Walldorf a few times. He pinged a colleague in the task handler group whom he knew and voila...

In case you're not a freelancer or a consultant who travels much and gets to know various people in person but instead are a shut-in employee, is there any chance to establish such... "connections"? Aside from SCN, that is.

I mean, eventually I always get beyond the global support the hard way if needed, but that means escalation, raising priority, sending our salesmen-contacts to the "front", etc. Such a process usually takes months which is intolerably tedious. :<

[Steffi_Warnecke · Accepted solution]

I had to raise the priority of my one of my last tickets (with the whole escalation via SAP contacts, several emails, etc), which meant filling out the "why is this so important to you?"-questionaire that is attached to a high priority. But if tickets with a lower priority are ignored, why even have that status?!

[Lukas_Weigelt · Accepted solution]

You'll laugh, but sometimes I had a faster processing with Support Messages on Priority "Low" which I opened for stuff I wasn't sure whether it really embodied a standard error or whether it was "Dat stuff is just working as intended, Bro" than for Medium Priority Messages with pressing issues.

Maybe there's also some kind of psychological factor here as in "Oh look, there's a smooth calming low-priority message; might as well process it for relaxation as a sideline", I don't know.

[Steffi_Warnecke · Accepted solution]

I'll test that theory the next time I have to open a ticket!

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

I believe that this is actually true. I have been told before that the priority does not actually make any difference.

Cheers,

Julius

[UweFetzer_se38 · Accepted solution]

I'm not laughing. I often set the prio to low just because the ticket is than forwarded directly to the 2nd level support... (may not work in all modules)

[Matt_Fraser · Accepted solution]

I have definitely had this same experience!  And not just once, but multiple times.  In fact, it's the running joke on my team, that others can submit high priority incidents/messages (payroll not working, etc) and get very little traction, and I'll submit a low priority message and it's solved within the day.  I've suspected at times that it has to do with your own track record of submitting messages:  if you frequently submit high or very high priority messages that are later downgraded, perhaps you get 'flagged' somehow as a repeat offender and your messages are simply not taken seriously, but if you regularly use medium or low priority and reserve your high priorities for only the most serious problems, then you're paid attention to.  Not sure if that's really true.  Probably the reality has more to do with the functional area you assign to the message, and how busy the folks supporting that area are.

[Steffi_Warnecke · Accepted solution]

I had never a ticket that needed to be down-graded. ^^ And I don't open tickets very frequent, because I try not to bother the SAP support with low level stuff. When I open a ticket, it's because I really need to and it's importent etc. But try to convince the first level support about that. *sigh*

[UweFetzer_se38 · Accepted solution]

Just right now I've got a solution for prio low ticket: submitted on Friday, provided solution (incl. SAP correction) on Monday

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Holy smoke...

I opened a message and changed the priority from medium (default) to low and used the installation number of a demo system. I reported an irritating short dump in the TMS, which did however not stop the calling program from continuing...

That was yesterday evening at 21:00 - can't go much lower than that in the support foodchain...

SAP set the message to in progress at 5:00 this morning.

It is now 9:30 and I have a solution.

I think we are onto something here...  🙂

Cheers,

Julius

[Steffi_Warnecke · Accepted solution]

That's kind of awesome and sad at the same time.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Yep, someone called Doris was up at 5:00 a.m. this morning to help me. I feel so bad about it, despite that she was very friendly about the whole issue and wished me a wonderful rest of the day.

Cheers,

Julius

[Steffi_Warnecke · Accepted solution]

Awww. I instantly like Doris. Doris rocks!

[ThomasZloch · Accepted solution]

I bet Doris is from China, so it was almost lunchtime for her

Still a nice performance though.

We should suggest that people flag their SCN posts as "not urgent at all" or "take your precious time" from now on.

Thomas

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

That rang a bell for me, back in the dark ages of ABAP General moderation...

http://scn.sap.com/thread/965115

Cheers, Julius

[ThomasZloch · Accepted solution]

Brilliant...2008 was when the sun was rising to end the dark ages

Thomas

[Lukas_Weigelt · Accepted solution]

I dunevenno whether the OP in tat thread was even trying.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Oh, the memories...  

[Jelena · Accepted solution]

Julius von dem Bussche wrote:

Yep, someone called Doris was up at 5:00 a.m. this morning to help me.

Harry Tasker: The code name of your assignment will be Boris. And your code name will be...

Helen Tasker: [hopeful] Natasha?

Harry: No... Doris.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/True_Lies

[Colleen · Accepted solution]

I love that movie!!! Thanks for making me chuckle

[Jelena · Accepted solution]

Lukas Weigelt wrote:

I dunevenno whether the OP in tat thread was even trying.

And 0 replies - obviously the SCN members are mean, un-inclusive bullies devout of any empathy.

[SimoneMilesi · Accepted solution]

i've to follow you just to read that blog post

[Jelena · Accepted solution]

Simone Milesi wrote:

i've to follow you just to read that blog post 

It was just a joke but after checking number of likes on that - maybe I should actually write it, hmm... Just hope that "people who mess with SAP get cement shoes" is not on the list of similarities.

[petr_solberg]

Hi Julius,

I am not sure if, "can't get past SAP's 1st Level Support", is something that I would publicly share

Our job as seasoned professionals is to be able to handle SAP Support.

I love the American phrase, "this ain't my first rodeo", and I relish the challenge of  getting past SAP 1st Level Support and find it a fun sport.

A few weeks ago, on a Very High message, the processor got the message out of their queue by sending it to me (putting the Very High message into Customer Action) late on a Friday night and asking, "would I like the message to be passed to the next level of support?". I replied and said, that is a cheap trick which I do not expect and tolerate, this is a Very High message and if I hadn't spotted it coming back to my side, it might have been waiting on my side until Monday with a really childish question, needless to say, I expressed this in no uncertain terms and advised them to not play such a cheap trick again. Their downfall was that these days when a message changes state we get an email notification, in the old days I wouldn't have been so fast to react.

Best regards,

Andy.

[Steffi_Warnecke]

Their downfall was that these days when a message changes state we get an email notification, in the old days I wouldn't have been so fast to react.

Yes, I like that feature. But, as I found out with the ticket that was raised to "high", it doesn't work if a mandatory field is not filled.

I had included the answers to the "why so high"-questionaire in an email to a SAP representive, because she asked me to, under the assumption that they needed to put it in the information fields of the message to change the priority.

After several days, where I waited that I get an email that the message is raised and I finally would get a reaction there, I opened the message out of curiousity to see, if they at least had changed the priority yet. They had and there were several new replies in there. No notifications were sent to me though, because the mandatory fields for a high priority message hadn't been filled with my input. It looks like the SAP support can add posts to such an incomplete message, but not me. I had to fill the fields, before I could reply.

Yay for another great customer experience. ^^

[Former Member]

Sport? Are you on medication for this?

[Steffi_Warnecke]

AHAHAHAA! Julius...

[petr_solberg]

making a sport out of it is the medication, otherwise it would just get me down

and the i'd be ranting on here 🙂

Andy.

[Lukas_Weigelt]

find it a fun sport.

^^

This Monday is way beyond gallows humor. I've played the "please open the system"-game in one message for about three weeks now. Somebody give me the red button, the roaches can have this planet for all I care.

EDIT:

making a sport out of it is the medication

Please, teach me :<

Message was edited by: Lukas Weigelt

[petr_solberg]

Hi Lukas,

an OSS Message is one on one combat

     . it's you against 1st Level Support

     . you must know your enemy (The Art of War)

     . you must keep your head, no matter what sneaky tricks they try

     . you must have patience and perseverance

     . you cannot give up

     . it's a game of chess, your goal is check mate

     . your professional pride is at stake

     . and remember, it's fun, they don't mean it, it's not personal

The satisfaction is simply achieving your goal in the lowest number of moves, where

a move counted as the message being returned to Customer Action.

Andy.

[JL23]

Since I add a link to my SCN reputation tab along with my signature the number of moves have gone down drastically.

[Lukas_Weigelt]

Arigatou gozaimasu, Andy-Sensei.

@ Jürgen: Are you telling me the pinots and badges can positively influence the processing of a support message? o_o

[Former Member]

Hmm... thinking about it, it is much like folks paying to go to the gym, and boy do folks all over the world pay for that. That also hurts and there is an off chance that you could even meet someone that way. Or at least have more acquaintances whom you have actually also spoken to and shared real life incidences with, which is much better than imaginary friends...

Yep, now I understand. Definitely worth paying for - any hey.. your employer pays for it actually. We are onto something here... 

Cheers,

Julius

[JL23]

Lukas, it looks like it is. Maybe it is just caused by the fact that the support desk is located in a country where people believe in points, but why should I not use this for my advantage?

Unfortunately the link can only be seen when the ticket is opened, so it is not an advantage  until the first reaction.

[Lukas_Weigelt]

I think I'll give it a shot myself then. Maybe Platin is good enough to reduce the ping-pong game at least somewhat.

[Jelena]

Andy Silvey wrote:


     . you must know your enemy (The Art of War)

Ugh, imagine how different things could be if men could stop turning everything into the war... Everytime someone brings up this book in some work-related situation it makes my eyes roll all the way to the back of my head.

May I suggest reading Dale Carnegie or 'Wealth of Nations' or, heck, even Marx's 'Capital' instead? No, wait, scratch the last one - it might make a dangerous cocktail with Sun Tzu.

[Jelena]

Jürgen L wrote:

Since I add a link to my SCN reputation tab along with my signature the number of moves have gone down drastically.

Maybe we should just include a link to this thread in the signature.

[petr_solberg]

Hi Jelena,

we should start a Books and Reading thread in the Coffee Corner where everyone can recommend their favourite reads.

Next in the queue for me is The Prince, have you read that one and which category does it fall into ?

As ever, best regards,

Andy.

[Matt_Fraser]

The Art of War, and now The Prince... Are we obtaining an insight into your mindset?

[joao_sousa2]

1984

[Jelena]

Clearly SAP Support wouldn't want to mess with Andy.

By the way, it's an awesome idea to start a book thread, we should totally do that!

P.S. If the same books are on the SAP executive's reading list, it'd explain a lot actually. Empathy? Fuhgeddaboutit!

[Matt_Fraser]

Brave New World

[former_member182429]

I once had an OSS message opened to report a performance issue in the kernel. Like the OP, the L1 support was passing the buck with my message, saying it was a consulting issue.

Before logging the message, I had provided ABAP traces and pinpointed exactly which lines of ABAP code needed changes (and what code to change it to). But nothing came out of it after a couple of weeks.

Then I got really tired and started shaming the support guy for not knowing what ABAP is. And I demanded to be forwarded to the next level of support if he/she could not answer my questions.

By resorting to this method (of shaming the support guy and demanding to be forwarded to the next level), I managed to have my OSS message change hands through 6-7 different guys over the course of 6 months.

Naturally the last guy was the guru who was able to deliver the fixes I needed via OSS notes.

The first few guys went into my blacklist - in subsequent OSS message that I raised, whenever I saw them signing off the message I would simply demand to be forwarded to the next level of support.

And they did.

[Former Member]

I had this recently. A piece of new ABAP in BW was poorly crafted. It contained a bunch of SELECT * on large volumes of data.

So I described the problem and got the runaround. I got bored because in my mind I was just trying to help out a product team.

Coincidentally I had a call with the product manager for this area and pointed this out. They were interested but I am not sure if the fix ever got back into the product.

I have a lot of sympathy for SAP because I have run support and it is extremely hard to do well, especially at scale.

[former_member182429]

I have been in support myself (not with SAP though), and at the end of the day I have learnt that the most important thing most users want when they log issues, is not how quickly you can fix the issue.

It's "when" you can solve the issue.

It's OK if you are going to take some time (but not to the extent like "oh it'll be fixed next year") - the most important thing is to set the expectations right and let them know "when" it can be delivered.

Most users are happy so long as you can give them a delivery date (could be a few weeks or months).

The worst thing to do is to sit on the ticket and keep quiet on when it can be fixed, or insisting that it's a "as-is" behavior or a consulting issue (2nd worse) when there is concrete evidence to show that it's a bug.

[joao_sousa2]

So I described the problem and got the runaround. I got bored because in my mind I was just trying to help out a product team.

From my experience SAP Support doesn't care about bad coding. I had this situation where missing exception handling was throwing short dumps and the answer was "SAP code is supposed to work when the DB is according to expected". A standard SAP BAPI was the culprit for leaving the DB not "as expected".

What can you say after getting this reply? I would think it's programming best practices to implement error handling in the code, but not according to SAP.

[Former Member]

You say this, but I heard that Bill gets a SELECT * report on his desk each morning. They're trying hard to beat this stuff out the product.

[joao_sousa2]

I believe SAP product team wants to improve, I was just saying that specfically SAP Support, from my experience, won't aknowledge that you are getting errors because the code should be improved.

In my situation the OSS note could contain the error handling, but they insisted on leaving the exceptions unhandled (basically an INSERT DUPLICATE ENTRIES) and basically left me with no solution. For something that was caused by a SAP standard BAPI.

[Jelena]

Julius, I'm guessing SAP employees don't usually read Coffee Corner (their coffee corner is Business Trend space - boom! ), so I'll try to shout out to here. Hope she generously forgives me for such indiscretion.

[marilyn_pratt]

Thank you for doing so .  I should have been faster to do so myself.  She has so far been very open to critique and seemed vested in redressing these experiences.  Of course it will take more than one person to change behaviors in an organization but a shout out to her is an excellent start.

has been responsive as well!

[krscheffler]

Thanks for bringing me into this very lively discussion.

Julius, I would love to dig into this further.   Would you be so kind as to message me the incident number so we can analyze this?

I don't have a silver bullet type of answer for you.  Reasons can vary, and I don't want to give excuses, but I do appreciate your candidness.  This gives us a great opportunity to look at where we can improve and adjust accordingly.

Cheers,

Kristen

[Colleen]

Hi Kristen

Does SAP support have some way to analyse the free text (maybe HANA comes into play) or the incident attributes to find stats on

• Number of times incident sent back to customer
• Delay between returned by customer/sent first time and responded to
• Free text for phrases like "please escalate"; "As mentioned previously; "Stop telling me to apply notes; "I already tried that" - I'm sure a list of common phrases could be supplied by Coffee Corner
• Search where customer provided system connection details and SAP support person sends call back to request system connections

Analyse the history to see the common themes on the customer support side. Most of what we raise in SCN discussions like these are documented in the Incident.

My first time raising support messages (now incidents) had my colleagues tell me not to get my hopes up that my issue will get resolved and to expect my incident sent back to me. Even grabbing facts and data of how many calls are sent for "Rework" might help understand what is an issue that can be fixed versus what is the customer perception.

In short - maybe SAP support needs to look at changes to their metrics on how they identify issues and then use them as their KPIs to improve their services.

Unrelated, I wish our SCN reputations could be linked to SAP Marketplace incidents - if someone high up in a space raises a questions and also links the SCN discussion in then it might deserve immediate escalation past level 1. This one here might be wishful thinking

Regards

Colleen

[krscheffler]

Hi Colleen,

You raise valid and important points here.  I will ask some colleagues about our analysis capabilities.

At the end of the day, our support team wants to help resolve issues quickly and correctly.

That being said, it is apparent that not everyone has that experience, and it is our job to identify the gaps, educate/train on those gaps, and keep working towards a superior experience.

Cheers,

Kristen

[Former Member]

Kristen - I think I can speak for all of us when I say that we appreciate your candor and leadership.

The big thing for me is the to and fro on access. SAP needs to urgently fix this process so customers can ensure access is right before opening an incident. This would be a huge win. Ping me if you want more details!

[joao_sousa2]

I imagine this gigantic support is quite hard to manage, especially when you have so many VARs doing the 1st level support.

To add do Collen's post I think one of the most frustrating things is getting asked multiple times for reconstruction steps after they were provided. From my experience it's quite normal for 1st level support to simply ignore what is written in the original submission.

This is one of the sort of things that should have a question in the closing survey, and if after investigation it is confirmed to be accurate feedback, the support person should be highly penalized. We waste a lot of time preparing reconstruction step ... for them to be ignored is just..... arghhh .

[Jelena]

Joao, we had a discussion few months ago on what the form looks like from the SAP side and I believe that the problem is that the section 'Steps to reproduce' that is clearly visible in the incident form for us somehow does not translate well into what SAP sees.

I haven't gotten a chance to do that but maybe someone could try instead entering steps into the main section (where we describe what the peoblem is) and see if it makes a difference.

But whatever the issue is (lousy interface, training, etc.) I agree this should be resolved as a high priority. It seems so far that the top paint points for everyone are being asked for the steps when already provided or being asked for a connection when it's either already open or is not needed. Really would love to hear from SAP soon what is being done on these points specifically.

[Lukas_Weigelt]

But whatever the issue is (lousy interface, training, etc.) I agree this should be resolved as a high priority. It seems so far that the top paint points for everyone are being asked for the steps when already provided or being asked for a connection when it's either already open or is not needed. Really would love to hear from SAP soon what is being done on these points specifically.

This, a thousandfold.

[joao_sousa2]

Because ignoring data provided by the customer (steps or open connection), makes the customer think "They just want to win some time.....". It really needs to be severely punished.

[Jelena]

There is an expression in Russian that can be loosely translated as "to start a fool"  (запустить дурочку), it means to start sending replies with completely irrelevant information. The expression is mostly known from an old TV comedy - I couldn't find a video with subtitles, but the fragment in Russian is here on YouTube. The first person sends a question about their order to the factory and at 1:28 it shows the message received there. They are unable to fulfill the order, but they don't want to tell the truth and can't just ignore the question either. So at 3:02 they decide "to start a fool" and then exchange series of completely irrelevant (although mildly funny) replies. I'm really tempted to reply with this link every time SAP "starts a fool" with a request for steps and such just to say 'I know exactly what you're doing'.

It's somewhat similar to the famous Hodja Nasreddin story:

`My dear fellows,' he said calmly, `before three years are up, either I will die or Timur will die. Or, the donkey will die!'

[Former Member]

Joao Sousa wrote:

Because ignoring data provided by the customer (steps or open connection), makes the customer think "They just want to win some time.....". It really needs to be severely punished.

You can be sure that there are many ways to "buy time". Also keep an eye on the "automatically closed" field in the message... (if that closes the message then I suspect they get some SCN points or something like that).

To me it seems that the incentive creates this behaviour so the model is wrong (much like the SCN points system wastes a lot of time as well with low quality noise because the model encourages it...), so the incentive needs to be changed not to play ping-pong and solve the problem correctly.

SAP seems to be "Weltmeister" in dribbling the ball between the defenders when the customer team is on "medium" priority towards the goal. I guess that makes the "Low priority" strategy discussed here something like scoring an own goal - but hey.. you get the solution and you have all the top players around you to check that the ball goes in...  😉

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

These are very difficult metrics to use. Customer skills differ as well as complexity of problem.

What I heard is that someone is dedicated to reading the free text comments, and probably has a good impression for what works and what not. But whether that person is some librarian who delivers a summary or major problems to the personnel data protection officer or whether theyare on the groundfloor to make anonymized recommendations to some process optimization board I don't know.

Cheers,

Julius

[Jelena]

Glad to hear there is a happy ending to the story, but this made me wonder - should there at least be some limit on the number of brush-off replies? E.g. "third strike and you're out" (i.e. get passed to the next level of support). Not sure it makes a lot of sense to let the 1st support level hold the fort forever.

[Former Member]

Well, it is not really a happy ending - although I do not have problems with hanging sessions anymore.

The reason for me opening this rant here is because of 1st level support from an external call center insisting on having a discussion with me about task handlers and not passing the message on. That is actually the problem and it happens regularly.

Well, the note is released now and if you look at the symptom and solution you will understand that even describing such system behaviour cannot possibly be dealt with by someone without access to the development support. So why do they waste my time for 2 months? What incentive do they have?

I like the idea of a "3rd strike you are out":

Strike 1: Open a connection - I want to look at your kernel.

Strike 2: Upgrade to the latest release and try again, otherwise see SAP note # 11.

Strike 3: You are not meant to even know about this kernel function so I cannot help you.

That normally happens very efficiently, so support levels should improve drastically on strike 3 kicking off automatic escalation...

Cheers,

Julius

[joao_sousa2]

The problem is you have to imagine what 1st level of support really handles.

We are probably the people who don't even use OSS very much because we are so feed up with them, we would rather debug the entire ECC then have another fight.

Most people, probably the vast majority, creates OSS messages for consulting problems. See what happens in our forums? That. These 1st support people don't know you, and are suspicious.

Not exactly defending them, since sometimes it's too much, and they should be able to tell the difference between someone who has done their homework and not. But I do believe they must face many lazy folk.

If there is something I do with my teams is really restrict the usage of OSS. I must see the ticket before they submit.

[Former Member]

That would be an interesting experiment -> open a SAP message as low priority asking politely how to solve a simple consulting type of problem, like how to configure the MRP module or what is invoice verification.

If that sort of thing gets fast attention then we know that gamification has gotten a hold of service.sap.com 1st level as well.

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

My guess is this is tied to the financial KPIs attached between SAP and the outsource datacenter company. These probably cascade to their helpdesk personnel, causing this behavior.

It is a very tough problem to solve at scale.

[joao_sousa2]

But there are things that can be done. For example, there are situations where the support outsourcer (which is usually the value added reseller) also provides consulting/implementation services for said customer. This brings in questions of independence, since the outsourcer will be inclined to provide better support service to the consulting/implementation customer.

And there needs to be a channel through which customers can request an external evaluation of the problem, since like you see here, problems get solved after people contact someone in SAP using their personal contacts. Like in tennis matches, 2 SAP reviews per month?

Not saying it is easy to solve, but steps can be taken to improve it.

[Former Member]

Yes I believe that in the VAR agreement, partners can do the first line support for software they sold and take a larger percentage of the software and maintenance. That drives partners to do this to increase margin.

The interesting thing is that the SAP brand is attached to their VAR partner, which causes a problem in this scenario.

From what I learnt through AGS, there is a lot of weight attached to the post-closure survey. If you have a problem then be sure to fill in the survey because bad scores are reviewed and SAP will hold the partner to account.

[Former Member]

I am certain that a VAR partner did not sell the kernel to me though. So this must be some 1st level support agreement between SAP and the call center which creates an incentive for them to play ping-pong with the message and not pass it on to development support when it is clear as daylight that it belongs there.

I eventually asked the development support how to rate the experience because 1st level was <no further explanations needed> but the development support understood the problem, helped me and also gave me some information about other "race conditions" in the task handlers which they are improving in the next kernel patch level. So how to rate the experience in the call closure survey?

They basically said exactly the same as John has mentioned: rate it honestly and use the comments text. There is someone who actively reads all comments and takes action based on them. The radio buttons are just a happiness barometer for stats. The comments get read and acted on.

Cheers,

Julius

[Former Member]

John Appleby wrote:

My guess is this is tied to the financial KPIs attached between SAP and the outsource datacenter company. These probably cascade to their helpdesk personnel, causing this behavior.

It is a very tough problem to solve at scale.

Your guess is my main suspect as well. There must have been some incentive to play cat & mouse with me and not pass the message on despite no reason not to do it and I spoke to the 1st level person (calling from a Canadian telephone number but located somewhere in India) twice on the phone and we both agreed that he cannot help me after I explained what a kernel function is.

But no... he always came back with "Customer Action" after having spoken to his senior colleagues with some new reason why I should use consulting and close the message on SMP. Eventually they resorted to SCN when there was no way I was going to open a connection to my system for them and the likelihood of them doing consulting for me was 0.

Of course we are speculating, but the puzzle pieces fit.

Perhaps someone from SAP can explain the issue at hand? I am Ok with my message being a case study to analyse the problem as I don't think it is an isolated case and nothing personal against the supporter - he simply was in way over his head and was apparently not allowed to pass it on.

Cheers,

Julius

[Lukas_Weigelt]

It appears when dealing with the SAP first Level support, we do live in a classless society 😆

[Jelena]

You're still missing "it's by design", so hang in there. If you could email me the details, perhaps I could help in writing a response that will sufficiently scare them into doing something more meaningful. Although 1 month - pffffst! That's our usual first response time.

[Former Member]

I am actually ok with the "working as designed" if an explanation is given. This is a sensitive thing (loging a user of who might have a job running, or http session open, or a lock, or parrallel processing in internal sessions).

But calling an FM which calls a kernel function and never returns is surely something which should be reported, as application programs cannot even react to it.

Cheers,

Julius

[joao_sousa2]

I think the support has really gone downhill in the last few months/years. I've been exchanging a message back and forth because support has asked for reproduction steps 3 times! One during the opening of the ticket, and twice during the interaction.

In this situation I provided in the original incident report a screenshot of the code where the error occurs, explained why it occurs, and still the guy keeps asking for reproduction steps....which I've given..... 3 times! And do you know what he has to do? Put URL in browser, login, RABAX_STATE. How hard is it?

At this point I basically use SAP OSS for notes and Very High problems, because for the rest.... I really don't have the patience to interact with SAP Support.

[Former Member]

I did not even get that far this time - but a useful "street skill" is to ask for screenshots showing how the guru on the other end of the line tried to reproduce it. Then they actually have to try it themselves at least once.

Unfortunately in this can we cannot reliably reproduce it either, but gathered enough information to be able to describe the problem and scenarios where it can happen.

In the meanwhile I have been asked to leave the message open on my side until SAP contacts me. I Thankfully declined - won't fall for that trick again... (after 3 months it is automatically closed and considered abandoned in the stats...).

Cheers,

Julius

[joao_sousa2]

My most frustrating interaction with SAP support was related to a "I can't reproduce it" situation.

I had a short dump in the PO update FM, because SAP wonderful programming does something you should never do, an INSERT db FROM TABLE table without checking for duplicate entries.

I created test data in SE37 so they could reproduce the issue, and they were able to replicate the dump. Done deal right? No, I got the "Now you must reproduce the situation that left the database inconsistent".

He sent me one of those support notes that says "If we can't replicate we can give you no support". I explained to him, that he himself had told me he had replicated the situation, but to no avail ... he refused support unless I could replicate the original inconsistency, which was caused by a standard not modified BAPI_PO_CHANGE (yes, I was abusing it with crazy combinations, but still all standard).

In the end, I gave up ....

[Jelena]

Julius von dem Bussche wrote:


In the meanwhile I have been asked to leave the message open on my side until SAP contacts me.

I had a similar response recently (see here) and am still confused why this should be the customer's responsibility to follow up and why the status changes to 'Customer action' when there is actually nothing we can do? Doesn't SAP ticket system have some kind of a flag to remind the processor about the ticket. Even in our lousy system we have a 'next action date'.

Maybe it improves the SAP support stats but it's a very lousy customer service if you ask me.

[Former Member]

Sometimes the customer resolves the issue themselves and SAP come running back asking for the solution to be documented and released in a new note Not sure who is supporting who????

[Colleen]

Oh bless

my give up moment was 1st level explaining what an authority check and that sap_all will work when I sent them evidence proving an incorrect field was being checked for the object.

I think you are a little premature on your rant. Come back when you hit 6 months and haven't levelled up yet;)

[Former Member]

Perhaps I am a bit spoilt because support in BC-SEC areas is excellent. Drifting off into the application modules can be a test of nerves...

But task handlers outsourced to a call center somewhere in Timbuktoo? That is something very special and important in the system...

It certainly is not something caused by the customer system nor do we have the option to opt out from using...

Thanks for the comment, although it did not really cheer me up much... ;-(

Julius

[Colleen]

I Don't think any comment will cheer you up on this thread unless the SCN kernel consultant turns up and saves the day.

yes, you are spoiled in BC-SEC

could this issue fall under security vulnerability and be reported that way instead?

[Former Member]

Colleen Lee wrote:

I Don't think any comment will cheer you up on this thread unless the SCN kernel consultant turns up and saves the day.

Let's try to invite one, pinging .

[Former Member]

Perhaps I should move it to GRC component, as the fire fighter session management uses the same task handlers (session ends, logs are produced, but a rogue session remains open and can continue to be used...) and let the two of their 1st levels fight it out.

I did that once before with the logon exit (changing the logon language brings up the licence popup after login is completed but before forcing duplicate sessions out of the system again), but nothing came of that as they did not get past blaming each other.

I will keep that option open for the moment still.

Cheers,

Julius

[Colleen]

When you do that Level 1 will keep directing you to the already released notes relating to firefighter session terminations. But at least it will be a different conversation. You are right, FF would be impacted and would impact audit log collection.