can we Customize of Biller Direct 6.35 without NWDI

[Former Member]

Hi Team,

We are on NW 7.3 and UCES 6.35. We have to do lots of changes for UCES customization.

1.  As per our Basis team they can not install NWDI into the same server where EP core is there from 7.3 onwards (This might be restriction from SAP for 7.3 onwards).

2.  Because of the point 1 we can not install NWDI and we have to do customization without NWDI as we are not having any other JAVA server.

3. Now from 7.3 onwards SAP removed the SDM so we can not deploy from NWDS. so I think  we can not customize without NWDI from 7.3 onwards. please confim? if yes please tell me the way to achieve?

Regards,

Narpal Singh

[junwu · Accepted solution]

1. not the case

2. not possible without nwdi

3.sdm is removed since 7.1, but you still can deploy from nwds

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Thanks for your reply Jun Wu,

On point 2. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

If we take all the UCES SCs locally and create a project into NWDS and add all dependencies as a library files manually. Build the project locally after removing all dependencies error etc. Do the changes and deploy into server. Is there any hope if we try above way. what could be the problem in this?

Regards,

Narpal Singh

[junwu · Accepted solution]

I am not very familiar with UCES, but normally SAP won't support this kind customization you imagined.

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Narpal,

#1. I don't think there is such limitation, as far I know you can have both running on the same machine (EP/NWDI)

#2. Biller Direct does not need to run under anything 'SAP' branded, you can extract and run it locally in a Tomcat if you want, -- also, there is no real need for NWDS as far I'm aware.

#3. Since you don't need a bloated AS like NetWeaver to develop, you can just use a Tomcat or Jetty Container pointing directly to the root folder - you would have 'instant' access to modifications, (change in eclipse, save and hit f5 in the browser)

SISU has a paper for this (I used to work with those folks) and I can guarantee you this way is at least 1000x better to work than using NWAS, NWDS and NWDI.

http://www.sisusoftware.com/assets/Uploads/E-Commerce%20setup.pdf

Hope it helps,

D.

PS: we are talking about Java here, and there is no bloody way SAP can be restrictive using such language.. so be aware of 'not possible' answers, they are usually possible.

PS2: leaving the 'SAP Stack' you are also free of 'SAP Limitations' and they are quite A LOT.. removing NWDI out of the equation will bring you a solution for a problem you also mentioned in this thread.

[junwu]

what if sap release new version? how to combine with your change?

[daniel_ruiz2]

Hi Jun,

what IF ? - well, a few things must be mentioned here:

a) no real 'e-Commerce' (B2B or B2C) would have a 'migration path', as we both know the Release Notes are not extensive; so what SAP basically provides with NWDI can be easily discarded anyways;

b) no real 'patching' has happened on these technologies, and when it happens you can always do a full diff on both vanilla version files and see exactly what changed - and base your upcoming changes on that;

c) since having NWDI also does not guarantee compatibility (because SAP will break it most likely), I guess it's always win-win because you would end up with a much more adequate development environment;

Cheers,

D.

[Former Member]

Just a few comments to avoid misunderstandings

#1. I don't think there is such limitation, as far I know you can have both running on the same machine (EP/NWDI)

Correct, but the NWDI should be standalone. It is a system, which is available accross all landscapes (development, quality, ..., production). A enterprise portal is just for a specific stage like quality. If you mix up the applications, you will not be able to isolate the individual landscapes anymore. Also you do not want to take a risk to corruped your NWDI, because if this one does crash as of development work at other applications, you will loose your source codes and face a painful process to recover those.

#2. Biller Direct does not need to run under anything 'SAP' branded, you can extract and run it locally in a Tomcat if you want, -- also, there is no real need for NWDS as far I'm aware.

Not correct, Biller Direct is tightly integrated to SAP's Netweaver environment. There is not chance you get it working within Tomcat, unless you rewrite the whole front-end. It already starts with the XCM (wich can be solved), then the SAP User Management, etc. Biller Direct is depending on those services / interfaces.

#3. Since you don't need a bloated AS like NetWeaver to develop, you can just use a Tomcat or Jetty Container pointing directly to the root folder - you would have 'instant' access to modifications, (change in eclipse, save and hit f5 in the browser)

I think the previous paragraph did already provide the answer: not working.

The whitepaper you provided is good, but making this working takes quite some time. It is also written for SAP E-commerce and yes, Biller Direct is partially re-using some elements of E-Commerce (ISA) like XCM. However, the main issue of Biller Direct is .... the developer had no experience how SAP ISA works and hence did just partially use some elements and wrote most of the logic himself. Also the whole login process is not the same as ISA, it completely relys on the NetWeaver - SAP ISA still had all processes within it's own application. You also will be forced to clean up any JSP page from some NetWeaver specific implementations like the cross site scripting feature, which was implemented to quickly.

Somehow you will get it working, but that will take serveral months and a lots of expertise to get the site effects under control. ISA is compared to Biller Direct a "Kindergarten", not because of functionality, but becaue of the architecture and the way of how the coding was done.

[daniel_ruiz2]

Andreas Halbig wrote:

Just a few comments to avoid misunderstandings

#1. I don't think there is such limitation, as far I know you can have both running on the same machine (EP/NWDI)
Correct, but the NWDI should be standalone. It is a system, which is available accross all landscapes (development, quality, ..., production). A enterprise portal is just for a specific stage like quality. If you mix up the applications, you will not be able to isolate the individual landscapes anymore. Also you do not want to take a risk to corruped your NWDI, because if this one does crash as of development work at other applications, you will loose your source codes and face a painful process to recover those.



#2. Biller Direct does not need to run under anything 'SAP' branded, you can extract and run it locally in a Tomcat if you want, -- also, there is no real need for NWDS as far I'm aware.


Not correct, Biller Direct is tightly integrated to SAP's Netweaver environment. There is not chance you get it working within Tomcat, unless you rewrite the whole front-end. It already starts with the XCM (wich can be solved), then the SAP User Management, etc. Biller Direct is depending on those services / interfaces.





#3. Since you don't need a bloated AS like NetWeaver to develop, you can just use a Tomcat or Jetty Container pointing directly to the root folder - you would have 'instant' access to modifications, (change in eclipse, save and hit f5 in the browser)


I think the previous paragraph did already provide the answer: not working.

The whitepaper you provided is good, but making this working takes quite some time. It is also written for SAP E-commerce and yes, Biller Direct is partially re-using some elements of E-Commerce (ISA) like XCM. However, the main issue of Biller Direct is .... the developer had no experience how SAP ISA works and hence did just partially use some elements and wrote most of the logic himself. Also the whole login process is not the same as ISA, it completely relys on the NetWeaver - SAP ISA still had all processes within it's own application. You also will be forced to clean up any JSP page from some NetWeaver specific implementations like the cross site scripting feature, which was implemented to quickly.

Somehow you will get it working, but that will take serveral months and a lots of expertise to get the site effects under control. ISA is compared to Biller Direct a "Kindergarten", not because of functionality, but becaue of the architecture and the way of how the coding was done.

LOL - pure knowledge.. kkkkkkkkkk

[Former Member]

Sounds not really professional, but enlighten, me what was not correct?

[daniel_ruiz2]

all your replica was incorrect! - like everything, about NWDI, about being 'tightly' integrated and about not being able to run ISA /Biller Direct on Tomcat.

(this is the only bloody way I work with something like ISA, so I can guarantee you it works, still works and will pretty much work in future because nothing will change on those dead SAP products)

and, it's simple, it's really simple.. it doesn't take several months, because already took some people some time - and knowledge was shared - so it's more like hours instead of months we're talking here.

[Former Member]

Hello Daniel,

saying everything is wrong is a bit the easy way. I would appreciate you say what is wrong in detail?

Regarding NWDI you are saying, it is not supposed to be a standalone system and it is not running parallel accross the landscapes Dev.,consulidation, QA and production? Keep in mind, that this system is not just only a version control system for your developments, it's also responsible  to transport all developed software to each runtime environment (from Dev to production).

Regarding "Tightly" integrated. I am pretty sure i can tell, that this is the case because I know every line of code and I am doing Biller Direct & UCES since many many years as my daily business.

I never did doubt, that it is possible to get ISA or Biller Direct working on Tomcat - you can get everything somehow working, if you spend enough time. You can also take the engine of a porsche and build into a VW beattle, but does it make sense as recommendation if you only have a flat tire?

It's kind of the same would you currently recomend. Someone is having diffculities with NWDI, but you ask him to rework the Biller Direct application to fit into Tomcat - what kind of sense does that make?

Here are few facts you should consider

1. "MSAT ISU Member" wrote they are using the Enterprise Portal, so that it is very likely Biller Direct is integrated into the EP. This scenario won't work anymore as SAP's out of the box Single-Sign-On mechanism is provided by the NetWeaver enivornment - you won't get it working on tomcat and i very much doubt you would also recommend to migrate EP to tomcat.
2. If you run Biller Direct or ISA on tomcat, you will loose all SAP support. So you pay a value in the range of 5 to 6-digits numbers but you won't be able to ask anyone for help. Every single issue will very likely end up with a consultant, which you pay again a furtune. One external consultant can easily cost you 5000-10000 USD per week. It is already tough enough to find experienced Web-Channel consultants to ask for help, so it will be even more worse to find someone who is femiliar with your non-SAP environment and custom coding & environment.
3. Unlike ISA, Biller Direct is using the NetWeaver Logon mechanism. If you want to run Biller Direct within Tomcat, you will have to re-write the whole codings related to logon. Just this piece of work that takes you a few weeks, if you do a full migration of all functionalities & scenarios. Because Biller Direct does not have it's own user management support features like "password reset" integrated (as it comes from NetWeaver UME), you will be forced to write your own from scratch.
4. Depending on user scenario, you will also loose some capabilities. E.g. if you used UME based user management, then the biller direct user management extension won't be available anymore as it is a WebDynPro extension for UME. The business will lose the functionality to search customers and assign them to the web-account.
5. Since 6.05 the XSRF extension was integrated into each JSP page, so just because of that simple example you have touch every single page to remove integration. Create a dummy class would be possible - however, by removing those features you will remove the securiy features & protection against hacker attacks.
6. ... and it keeps on going ....

There is no guide for Biller Direct available and it will take you a long time to figure out how and what needs to be done. After several months you will get the pages up and running and you will be very proud about what you have done - what you did not see is the whole amount of functonalities, usage scenarios and capabilities, you just ripped out.

You did it, but it took you 6-12+ month and you blow at least a half million USD into the wind (excluding licence cost) to implement the project what normally would have taken 2 weeks and a couple of thousands - the scary part is, that you have just 20-40% of the application working.

Seriously Daniel, you are a very smart guy. I love your energy and enthusiasm - please never loose it - but you should consider also the reasons, why managers of companies are going to buy SAP products regardless of the freedom you like to have. You must also consider the long term consequences of your decisions as well as the impact of your recommendation, if you are not in detail aware about the situation of the usage scenarios of the person, who is seeking for help.

When you write it always sounds like to have such experience, I very much doubt that you have ever done that. Have you? If yes, have to ever done it beyond your private sandbox and seriously sold it to a client without any regreds for productive usage?

Best regards

[daniel_ruiz2]

Andreas,

I'm aware English is not your first language; but neither is mine.. however, keep yourself to the facts.. the main thread discussions is about:

can we Customize of Biller Direct 6.35 without NWDI

- the answer is YES, they can; so all your argument about the philosophy behind SAP or what you like to call manager doesn't really matter, this is not what's being asked.

NWDI is there just to mimic the same bad process ABAP does to manage code: - that is the SOLE REASON for NWDI's existence.

of course, as the OP also mentioned, it will be deployed into an EP - there's absolute nothing different in that approach, when he runs an ant build it recompiles an EAR with all SAP dependencies, so it will work with 100% functionality.

and for his last question, he can deploy into any AS setting up in NWDS a server and using the deployment view.

now, the main issue here is how you deal with stuff: - the way I see, you're just a sheep wandering around doing your sheep's business, but you have no real clue about your surroundings.. there are wolves around, a lot smarter than you, a lot faster than you and they will most often always win on confrontation.

PS: I could correct you in every single point you made in your last email, but you're not here asking for help..

[Former Member]

Daniel Ruiz wrote:

of course, as the OP also mentioned, it will be deployed into an EP - there's absolute nothing different in that approach, when he runs an ant build it recompiles an EAR with all SAP dependencies, so it will work with 100% functionality.


and for his last question, he can deploy into any AS setting up in NWDS a server and using the deployment view.

Correct, we finally agree

P.S. Please feel anytime free to correct me, because that's the whole idea of having the community to exchange knowledge. Especially if some wrong statements are made by anyone!

Cheers Buddy

[Former Member]

Hi Andreas and Daniel, I think a very important theme that is not treated directly in these kind of threads is how to configure Netweaver Developer Studio to modify and customize Java objects to adapt Biller Direct to our needs.

We have already configured the connection to AS Java, the console, but we don´t get to view and debug Java objects.

Thanks above all.

[daniel_ruiz2]

hi Daniel,

well, working with the AS is pretty much the same for whatever product:

1. Create a NWDI Track;

2. Setup Runtime-Systems;

3. Setup your Software Component;

4. Add your Software Component into the newly created NWDI Track;

5. Add the SAP Software Components you need or you have a direct dependency upon;

6. Add the files (.SCA from SAP) into the 'Inbox' folder or your NWDI CMS;

7. Check-In these files;

8. CMS, Development Tab, Import all the SC's - this will build the _D compartment;

9. CMS, Consolidation Tab, Import all the SC's - this will build the _C compartment;

10. in NWDS, Development Infrastructure perspective, use the Import Development Configuration from SLD, and find your _dev track - this is usually where you do all your changes;

after this, the new SC could be checked out into your machine, or you can modify and add your DC's on it.

of course, the way I mentioned is not the only way of achieving this, there are always a lot of always to approach and resolve a given problem..

and the reason why we didn't discuss this in here it's because the OP did not ask for it - so we try to keep discussions focused on subject of the thread, even thou sometimes we can't.

last but not least, start a new thread about the topic - maybe there are others who would like to see or participate in such discussion.

[ErvinSzolke]

Dear Narpal,

The UCES sources are exported "DTR-Blobs" which can be imported only to DTR and not into NWDS directly. There are certain SCs which are including the sources as zipped DCs and these SCs can be imported into NWDS, but this is not the case for UCES.

Therefore I regret to inform you that in case you intend to have a look at the sources of UCES and/or you would like to do modification on its DCs, then you have to have an NWDI track for it.

Best Regards,
Ervin

[Former Member]

Hi Ervin,

Thanks for your reply! I suggested to Basis and they will provide me NWDI
.

Now our client is looking UCES into Arabic language and Arabic language is under the supporting lang. can you help me on this.

Regards,

Narpal Singh

[ErvinSzolke]

Hi Narpal,

I am sorry but I am afraid we, from NWDI support cannot guide you on this. Perhaps someone from UCES could help.

Regards,
Ervin

[Former Member]

Hi

i think there is a work-around to import UCES & Biller Direct SC's as local SCs to the NWDS. You only have to find anywhere a NWDI system to be able to downlaod the DCs once. Then you take all the SC's and copy & paste the code into a local SC files. If you do not have a NWDI, you only have to find someone who does have it (import & export from NWDS works also). The alternative is to install NWDI quickly, which takes a few hours, setup the track, download and delete the image. The demo licence should give enough time to make that working. - however, working without NWDI is not recommend, you will easily increase your implementation cost by n-times

The general problem is, why the client does simply setup a new system and installs the NWDI? It should by anyway a standalone system and not getting mixed up with EP or any other application (including BD & UCES).

Regards