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Demand and supply dynamics of the SDN...

former_member378318
Contributor
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Hi all,

Every now and again someone posts a whole heap of threads that show very little or no evidence of having done any research in order to try and solve the question or educate themselves. Yet there is always an eager queue of people waiting to send a reply (in the hope of gaining some points?).

What i'm trying to get at is so long as there is a demand for points then people will be willing to reply to most anything.

Source = single line non researched questions

Demand = points

When demand outstrips supply then its only natural to increase the supply. But how do you increase the supply whilst keeping the standards up? To be honest I think there is a very healthy supply of good questions. Its just a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff.

It just knarks me when people give time to poorly researched questions, it only encourages more to be posted.

Your thoughts?

Accepted Solutions (0)

Answers (3)

Answers (3)

pokrakam
Active Contributor
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...and then there are some who get upset when someone else posts a than their own (which started off with "I'm not sure..."). Or did I miss a rule that the first responder owns a question and nobody else may answer?

Nevermind losing their rag when being told their response is incorrect (for those not familiar with the technicalities: WAPIs and BAPIs are designed to be remote callable).

Cheers,

Mike

former_member378318
Contributor
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I think its time to go home for the weekend.

Reward points if helpful.

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Hi folks!

This thread shows me that I am not alone with my opinion that SAP has to do something, e.g. STOPPING THE POINTS SYSTEM so that SDN can become an expert 's forum - as the top level tries to pretend.

Please support this initiative!

Kind regards, Rudi

former_member378318
Contributor
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Hi Rudi,

You’re certainly not alone as this and other threads will show you.

How about the following suggestion to reduce the number of open posts:

- A user may have at most <b>X</b> open questions on a forum.

- Once the limit <b>X</b> is reached the user cannot post any more questions until an existing open item is closed by either:

(a) Marking the question as answered and rewarding points if applicable

(b) Marking the question as closed not answered

The number of open questions limit <b>X</b> could either be fixed across all users (say a maximum of two open posts) or it could rise as a user picks up points. Therefore new users could be limited to 1 open post in a forum, 100 points 2 open posts, up to a maximum of say 3 open posts. If critical a user could always ask a moderator to raise their open posts limit for a small window to allow an urgent question/s to be aired.

The benefits of such a system I think are:

1) Reduce the total number of open posts

2) Put a stop to people spamming a forum with questions

3) Force users to close open items and as a result think about allocating points.

This may not stop the point’s hunters but I think it will help cut down on the large number of terribly basic questions which feed them.

Surbjeet

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Surely a good idea...

But in the meantime I do not believe any more that small measures can help to stop the abuse of SDN.

Stopping the points system sounds radical.

And it would be a radical step.

But it also would stop the point hunters.

And SAP marketing would not suffer.

But SDN would profit.

And: Posting a thank you for a really very helpful answer ist much more personal than clicking on a points button. So: Who needs points?

Kind regards, Rudi

Former Member
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I agree to a point, but I have quite a few open posts, as I am still waiting for SAP to provide fixes for program errors.

The best way is to remove the points system altogether.

You'll still get the silly/vague/generic requests for interview questions as people cannot be bothered to search.

Many successful forums have built up a following and do not use a points system.

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Program errors SAP support did not handle?

Former Member
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> Program errors SAP support did not handle?

I logged an OSS message and the error on SDN (You get responses quicker on SDN for workarounds).

SAP have so far provided three fixes so far for one of my issues, that have not resolved it!

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Ouch!

Crossing fingers for the 4th fix,

Rudi

P.S.: Good tip for getting workarounds faster... Take yourself a point.

Former Member
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Similar to what I was complaining about last week -

The questions being asked on the forums lately are terrible but as you say, as long as people get points for answering them they will keep doing so.

Gareth.

former_member378318
Contributor
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Hi Gareth,

Yes very similar to your point, people are willing to entertain terrible questions in the hope of points. I remember reading your post and maybe mine would have better placed at the end of yours.

Surbjeet

Former Member
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How about this bad boy?!

It's beyond me why people bother... The SDN database at SAP must be bursting with duplicated data!

Gareth.

former_member378318
Contributor
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OMG! Ha ha ha as though the first reply needed any further explanation. Again a simple search of the SDN or SAP Help would have avoided the question in the first place.

KKilhavn
Active Contributor
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It is sad that expertise forums tend to be overtaken by people who want to exploit the system. Unfortunately, these people win as long as the forums are not moderated, or have other measures implemented which prevent people from spamming the forums.

Some people say I am too rough with people who ask questions that can be answered by pressing F1. However, my reply to that is that too many simple questions drive experienced people (who have better things to do than read 150 threads of simple questions every day) away from the forum. This is a loss for everyone, because it is the inputs (suggestions about what to check, questions forcing you to think things through) from those experienced people you will appreciate when you get stuck and the answer can <b>not</b> be found in the online help or in a previously answered question on SDN.

Perhaps people should be forced to be lurkers for the first month, or have a quota of 2 questions/threads per week? But then again, they would probably ask new questions in the same thread, making <u>that</u> problem bigger. I think the solution from service.sap.com would the best one, where the search is automatically performed before you are allowed to send a customer message.

former_member378318
Contributor
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Hi Kjetil,

I like your idea of an auto search which lists possible answers to a question before posting to a forum. May be this would stop the most lazy individuals from going one step further and actually posting the question.

What about a negative points system like the one on Ebay? If you see a forum post which you feel is inappropriate in anyway (lack of research, request for copyrighted material, a repeat question widely available on the SDN already, asking for complete program code, etc etc) then you ask a moderator to review the post with a view to "negative pointing" the poster. The poster then has a grace period to either fix, close or remove the post or risk negative points against their profile. I believe this would deter repeat offenders. Sorry mods I know its more work but its just an idea.

You see when people get away with it time and time again and there is nothing there to break the cycle. Its time to crack the whip ;O)

KKilhavn
Active Contributor
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Yes, the "negative points" solution seems attractive, but the fact that it requires manual input (otherwise we would have <u>wars</u>) is a big detractor. Automagic solutions rule!

One fairly good idea in Experts Exchange is their point system. For every day you visit the site you get one point (as far as I can recall). You also get a small number of points when you sign up. These points, plus points earned for answering questions, can be used to ask questions. You decide how many points you wish to set up for your question. Obviously, the higher the number of points, the more people will be interested in providing an answer to get those points. No solution is without drawbacks, but the system in Experts Exchange seemed to work towards reducing the number of questions asked since people run out of points. I would then recommend to not provide a possibility for buying points, and looking at previous answers should not cost any points. I think such a scheme would stimulate towards re-use.

One could then also have a guideline for how many points a question typically should be worth, to help newbies avoid setting up too few or too many points for their questions. If it was also possible to filter questions on number of points we could choose what type(s) of questions we wanted to see. Busy day: look only at "your own level", and on a slow day take a look at other questions as well.

Well, just my thoughts in the midnight hour - time to go to bed as soon as I find out when my flight is this morning

pokrakam
Active Contributor
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I must grudgingly admit to being one of those people slowly driven away from the forums by the sheer volume of noise. A catch-22 is that many experienced people tend to have less free time due to being in more demanding roles.

I would really like to see a system where I could filter users or at least hide threads. This could even be time-limited - e.g. "hide questions from user x" applies for 90 days. Some people are genuine beginners and I've often stated that I've no problem with basic questions that show a little effort. But I would love to click on a "blacklist" button when I see "what is x please provide me detailed example". It would make reading the forums a lot more pleasant as I could focus the time I have on the good stuff. The problem is that these posts get bumped up with every repeat answer and over the next two days I'll end up reading the same post six times or more. This is the main reason I've all but stopped posting - I simply do not have the time to wade through these over and over again.

I like the Experts Exchange type system. Another twist that has already been suggested is to limit the amount of open questions a user can have at one time.

Cheers,

Mike

former_member378318
Contributor
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Kjetil

I did not know about the Expert Exchange but it sounds like they have some interesting ways of handling posts on forums, I will have to check it out. I'm not too keen on the idea of a beginner with zero or low points not being able to ask a question. I'm sure my introduction to the SDN was when I had run out of ideas and had to turn to a wider community to help resolve an issue. If as a beginner I was not able to post my question I would probably have gone to another site like SAP Fans and not bothered to build up points on the SDN. Not sure when you will read this as I think you were catching a plane in the morning!

Mike

The filter on users and threads sound like a good idea and I know what you mean about useless threads being bumped up with repeat answers. Like yourself i'm tolerant of beginners (or non beginners) that have shown some evidence of having tried to resolve an issue before posting. Its a real shame contributors like yourself feel that they have no other option but to stop or reduce there contributions due to the amount of noise on the forums.

The topic of points and posts seems to be quite virilant at the moment:

Surbjeet

suresh_datti
Active Contributor
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it is funny.. I brought this up the "Experts Exchange" suggestion when the noise level wasn't that alarming.. I couldn't get to that thread, but I do remember the idea was turned down.. anyway nice to see others feel the same way..

~Suresh

this is the

Message was edited by:

Suresh Datti

pokrakam
Active Contributor
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Hi Surbjeet,

I vaguely recall Experts Exchange gives you enough points for 3-5 questions to get started when you sign up + a small amount per day. If you want more points then try help others. The most useful anti-gaming feature is that you have to offer your own points when asking a question. Perhaps this could be incorporated into SDN.

I created a WIKI FAQ many moons ago, guess whose name appears under "Last updated".... If people would point folks to the Wiki and/or add content then the lazy posters would get the message.

Sadly this is rare.

Why? The SDN points system in it's current form goes against that: Why update the Wiki and ask for points when you can get a lot more mileage by pasting a question into the search and copying a previous answer from the results into a lazy answer. What I find particularly annoying and disheartening are when people <a href="https://forums.sdn.sap.com/click.jspa?searchID=4255672&messageID=3589579">claim other posts as their own</a> (scroll to second last post).

Then there are those with <a href="https://forums.sdn.sap.com/click.jspa?searchID=4256105&messageID=3643060">too much time on their hands</a>. I'm not ungrateful for her contributions but to me it totally devalues the point system. It means points do not equal quality but are more a measure of quantity. Imagine if that amount of time had been spent on Wiki or blogging?

Forcing people to offer their own points EE-style could hopefully bring some balance back. Until then I will focus my time away from forums and look at doing some blogs or otherwise (hey, it's not all negative!). If it's going to be about point then I want to <b>earn</b> them

Cheers,

Mike

KKilhavn
Active Contributor
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In the mean time I suppose we just have to subtly that their questions are not particularly appreciated.

On second thoughts, why be subtle ;->

former_member378318
Contributor
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Ahahaha that had me in stitches were all doomed. It’s good to see SDN'ers can maintain a sense of humour in the face of insurmountable odds.

pokrakam
Active Contributor
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Absolute classic! Made my day

Former Member
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Can we nominate this response for an award??

Former Member
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Great answer.

Please someone transfer 10 points from my account to Kjetil's.

ramki_maley
Active Contributor
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Hear hear! That was super Kjetil!

Cheers,

Ramki Maley.

KKilhavn
Active Contributor
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Now, now, everyone. I had fun writing it, glad I could make you smile too. Hardly worth an award though!

However, and believe me this was not my intention, I got 10 points for it! Not by the original poster though, he/she has not responded

Former Member
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Excellent.

How about this for a not so subtle approach...

It highlights one of the issues I currently have with a lot of posters on here with big points - they don't really consider anything other than answering the question and getting the points. Its obvious to most people that updating standard tables directly is usually a no-no but that point is comlpetely overlooked in this instance. The original poster goes away thinking direct table updates are a standard approach - I'd much rather see someone get 10 points for pointing out that they shouldn't really be updating standard tables directly. Everyone concerned learns best practices and the original poster goes away having learnt somethnig about good development and not just syntax for a given command (which in this case could have been found out by pressnig F1 anyhow!)

Gareth.

former_member378318
Contributor
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Gareth that is just brilliant, what a find it's really kicked off on that thread and for good reason to. As you say its another example of the manic clamber for points that seems to posses many on the SDN regardless of high or low there points score.

Former Member
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These look like generic technical interview questions...

Hence the one line...

former_member378318
Contributor
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and your point is?

Most could be answered by either searching the SDN, web or SAP Help.